Thursday, February 12, 2009

Considering Horse Harvesting

Montana Legislator Sponsors 'Butcher Bill' to Allow Horse Slaughterhouses
Tuesday , February 10, 2009
HELENA, Mont. —

A Montana legislator is sponsoring a bill that would clear the way for a horse slaughterhouse in the state, if investors want to build one.

The United States no longer has a slaughterhouse where horses are processed, but there are facilities in Canada and Mexico that receive U.S. horses.

Republican legislator Ed Butcher of Lewistown says doing the work stateside makes more sense. He says that would help people who need to dispose of horses, and would strengthen Montana's economy. Read More

Many states are feeling the impact of our horse harvesting capabilities being eliminated in the US. Because of that several states have tried to help by looking at opening new harvesting facilities. Wyoming is also considering sending a resolution to Congress to urge them not to pass a bill banning horses being used for human consumption.

62 comments:

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Troy Hadrick said...

You comment doesn't even make sense, but I had the guts to post it. Now, you have until tomorrow morning to have the guts to reveal yourself or I take it down. Only a coward would write something like this without putting their name on it.

And the ability to harvest horses has everything to do with production agriculture. It has to do with food production, private property rights, excessive regulations, and the radical animal rights agenda.

The clock is ticking.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Troy Hadrick said...

No more comments until you would like to discuss this with your name on it. I'm not afraid to put my name on what I believe. Why are you?

vicki said...

Mr. Hadrick, why do you call horse slaughter, horse harvesting? Horses are not crops. Do you think it makes it more palatable to call it by other names? I'm curious why you are advocating slaughtering non-livestock? By livestock, I mean food animals. We slaughter animals for food in the US. Horses are not food animals, they are bred and raised as sport, work, service, therapy and companion animals.

Is there some reason why you are not addressing why we need slaughter? It is not as a disposal option as Representive Butcher ascertains. If someone wants to dispose of something, they throw it out or pay to dispose of it. With horse slaughter, that is not the case. Do you know any humane socieity that pays owners to dump their animals when they are "unwanted"? Don't you think before you advocate slaughter, you should address the problem? If you correct the problem, slaughter wouldn't be needed.

Not one person advocating slaughter is addressing the cause. Slaughter is a symptom of a problem, not a solution. Let's see you write a column on responssible breeding and taking ownership of horses they chose to buy or breed. How about supply and demand? If there is a surplus, you cut back on production - not keep producing more than you can sell or care for.

Eliminate the cause and you won't have to harvest horses. That is, of course, unless you are advocating enabling the irresponsible breeding and dumping.

www.vickitobin.com

Troy Hadrick said...

Hi Vicki,

How's the weather in Illinois? I have addressed the harvesting of horses many times on here. We call it harvesting because that is when we take a life for a higher purpose, like feeding a human being. Slaughter, on the other hand, is mass killing for no reason.

I have always advocated for using our natural resources instead of wasting them. You would like to have horses die and put in the ground for worms to eat. I say why don't we use that animal to feed a person.

I don't advocate irresponsible breeding. I advocate for responsible resource use.

Horses can serve a variety of purposes,including as a food animal. They are livestock. Webster says livestock are domestic animals raised for use and sale. If you don't want your horses to end up that way that is fine, but why should the rest of us waste a resource that can benefit so many. If you don't want to eat horse meat, that's fine too, but millions of people do.

vicki said...

Mr. Hadrick, the weather is cold and windy.

None of the people eating the horse meat are in the US. You know full well there is no market here. If there was and a dollar was to be made, the meat wouldn’t have all been shipped overseas. Why should our horses be butchered to feed the elite in Europe? I don’t buy your using the resources comment. I don’t care what foreign countries eat. There are countries that have cannibalism. What’s next, when granny is of no use you to anymore, butcher her and export her to those countries so a resource doesn’t go to waste? Do you also advocate slaughtering our cats and dogs to fill the markets in Asia? Horses are held on the same sphere as dogs as far as the purposes they perform in society.

If you view horses as livestock, why don’t they follow livestock regulations? Why aren’t they treated as livestock from birth? The only time they are livestock is after they’re “used up” and then they become livestock. Why is livestock slaughter called slaughter but horse slaughter is called harvesting? You don’t harvest living beings.

Again, you are not addressing the cause of slaughter. Have people humanely euthanize their horses and then “harvest” them. That’s only one more drug in addition to what the Europeans are already ingesting.

Anonymous said...

Troy------Didn't see any CATTLE in the Inauguration parade,but there were over 250 horses! Nor any pulling a President's body, or a veteran to be buried in Arlington----but guess in your mind, they are still livestock. Too bad your semantics prevent you from seeing the truth about horses.I believe you are using the economy, and the busy legislators, who are concerned with bigger problems, to advance your slaughter plans. We still have a voice, and your ideas impact the rest of the country, so we will persist! We can do it!!

Sandy

Anonymous said...

"We call it harvesting because that is when we take a life for a higher purpose, like feeding a human being. Slaughter, on the other hand, is mass killing for no reason."

So, harvesting= taking a life for a higher purpose. Your higher purpose is someone else's no reason and vice versa. I really don't think you want to go down that road...

Lisa

John said...

Hi Vicki! Imagine running into you here! It appears our time at the newspaper article has run out. My last post I made 24 hrs ago did not show up. It was a response to the last person who posted there, not you.

Great site you have here Troy and very informative! Keep up the good work! I have seen you and Stacy on the street or at different events but never knew who you were. Next time I will introduce myself!

I'm a 3rd generation rancher myself in Meade Co. My grandfather homesteaded in the 1900's and I still live on the home place. Part of my house is the original claim shack but it was moved on to a basement and built on to when my folks got married.

Vicki, I pretty much made every point necessary in our discussion. So far it looks like you're trying to reinvent the wheel here with the same tired stuff.

I intend to just kick back and observe and yield the floor to Troy and others. Maybe Troy can get the point across to you more effectively than an old guy like me!

John

Troy Hadrick said...

Vicki, I will address the "cause of slaughter" as you like to put it. Regardless of how many horses are bred, there will be some that won't fit a purpose, or they may reach the end of their useful lives because of some injury. At these points, we can still utilize them as a food source. Why does it matter to you who eats it? Everyone needs to eat regardless of their social status. And you just ruin your credibility when you suggest that I would eat another person. Come on, you are smarter than that.

And Sandy! Haven't heard from you in awhile. You are right, there were no cattle in the parade. Not sure of your point, but I can't argue with you there. As you may or may not know, different animals have different abilities that can be utilized my humans. Horses, cattle, ox can pull things just like when we were settling this country. All of those animals can also be eaten, just like they were when we settled this country. And i will continue to call them livestock, because they fit the definition of the word. If you would like the meaning of the word changed, you are going to have to talk to Webster about that one.

I'm not sure what the truth is about horses, but please share it with us. I'm not sure how to use the economy in my favor, but you could certainly share that theory with us as well.

Lisa, I would love to go down that road. Down that road is where I live and it's somewhere you should probably visit sometime.

Finally, John. Thanks for stopping by and sharing with us as well. I look forward to meeting you.

Airspace1 said...

I even wonder if Troy knows who and what he supports. Seem the economy is hurting when you get a farmer having time to write blogs on the internet and posts ads for a speaker in Ag. When instead he is supporting a foreign Interest company and rewarding irresponsible people that promote abuse and neglect to Horses. Troy I was real tempted to call you tonight but its 1030pm central time. But Im not going to waste my dime on you being you are to hard headed to see the truth. Truth that is these are foreign plants that have lied there way to promote more irresponsible people. These plants operated illegal for years in Texas. You dont mention that in your ag teaching did you know the majority of people that support horse slaughter are the ones creating the problems. You may have a right to think people have a right to eat what they want, but if they dont support our laws and listen to the will of the American People that oppose this you would sing a different tone. Did you know the SouthWestern Cattle Raisers Association were getting $3.00 per head slaughtered in Texas.. Hmmm sounds like a conflict of Interest with the cattle Industry huh Troy.. Did you know our Tax dollars paid USDA for these foreigners secretly. Hmmm'' Did you know that they hired undocumented illegals Hmm Maybe its something the cattle industry still does today.. Could that be because the Pork,Beef,Poultry Industry supports horse slaughter. Could that also be because if one fails due to getting truely exposed it could mean the collapes of another slaughter product.. Did you know the Cattle Industry tried to sue Oprah for her free speach and lost.. I am not Peta I am just a responsible horse owner and when my horses ARE old I will euthanize them on our pastures of Land. Yes it may cost me 100.00 or 200.00 but its my responsiblity. I dont expect to make an Auctioneer and a killer buy money by making my self a few buck off my beloved horse. Seems you should school people on education and responsiblity than to take fight peoples right to abolish horse slaughter. What next dog and cat slaughter. The only reason horses are consider livestock is because its a tax break among cattle on lots of land.. Thats it you take away the tax breaks then you will have more cry babies crying more. Did you know a Mexican plant actuallys owns the beltex plant in Fort Worth. A place that has many undocument people that dont even speak english. Advocates didnt start mexican plants they have only been operating secretly for years. California's budget is now in the red zone why because of illegals they have milked the systems dried and now the Governor is asking for help. Hmmm is the Cattle industry going to help themm.. NOT. Is the cattle industry going to monitor abuse and neglected animals at these plants NOT. To date not one of theses organizations have set retirement funds for the older horses or even donated to horse rescues in the US. Thoses are the AVMA,AAEP,AQHA,APHA,Farm Bureau, or any slaughter facility that support horse slaughter. All slaugher will do is promote irresponsible breeders. The market crash at a few auctions because they lost a few killers and mainly the economy. It wasnt the closing of horse plants You can reach me at any time for more facts. Remember I got the facts you will lose the debate with me..

Troy Hadrick said...

To airspace,

Again, we have people that won't sign their name, but rather hide behind a wall. If you have all of the facts and will win the debate, why don't you stick to the facts instead of spending time trying to insult me.

You have brought up nothing that i haven't addressed before. And frankly, your post is so poorly written, that it is hard to understand. But thanks for sharing.

If you have facts, that are backed by verifiable sources, please share them.

Airspace1 said...

Now I would like to thank Troy for submitting my message. I am a gentleman and a respectible one. I am pleased it was posted and not ignored. I have in the past have listen to both sides during my whole 18 years exposing horse slaughter. I have met some very nice people. We have also created a program to help rescues in the US and Canada. So far we have awarded more than 16,000 dollars to rescues. I would only like to see the People that get paid do something like me. I donate all my time and effort to searching rescues with visits and helping them. The Pro slaughter organizations such as the AVMA and the AAEP have taken an Oath to protect the horse yet have lied they knew horses were going to mexico and they knew double deckers were inhumane. They also knew that young healthy horses at the average age of 4 would go to slaughter. There have even been many births at these plants we have statement from the workers there to tell us this.. Is that humane is that right.. It must stop. AB Linclon once said to free slaves would make the ones making money very mad but it was the right thing to do when all men are created equal.. In History the Mid West in the early 1900 had millions of bison runing the land then they killed them all. The statement was that every bison killed was one less Indian we had to fight. Now its the horses we are having to save. History of horses being released onto the wild lands started with the spanish explores its nothing new but shouldnt happen because of a growing society. Horse slaugher in America will be similar to Bill Gates owning a market with no competition no wonder they are lying to Americans about uwanted horses. They made over 32 million dollars in 06 Hmm No wonder..And Yet we Americans are hurting.

Airspace1 said...

Gee I thank you for posting my comment and educate you. I didnt claim to be a professional writer. Nor a Ag know it all as you and your spouse claim to be.

Airspace1 said...

I dont think I would share my facts with you because most would be ignored and blown in the wind..Its even wasteful for me to comment again on your small blog.. with no facts on your behalf.

Lori Hackman said...

Hi Troy,
Coming from a state that had a horse slaughterhouse, I am highly opposed to horse slaughter for many reasons. The main reason though, is that according to our own food laws, it is illegal. I have done a lot of research in this area. The piece below is one that I wrote when horse slaughter for human consumption was happening in the US. There are real consequences for us if we want to keep horse slaughter alive.


US Horse Meat is Unsafe for Human Consumption

The main problem with slaughtering US horses for human consumption is that the meat is unsafe because of the medications that horses receive. These medications are not approved for use in any food animals by the FDA and the USDA. The medications are legal for horses as they are not considered food animals by either of these agencies. If we are to continue to allow the 1% of the horse population to be slaughtered by foreign companies for human consumption overseas, then we must either 1) lose an estimated 70% of the current medications that US horse population receives so that the drugs do not enter the food supply or 2) implement a tracking system for the 9 million horses in the US, like the passport system that Great Britain has had to do, to ensure that these medications are not used in horses sent to slaughter.

Why is American horse meat unsafe for human consumption?

* Horses are not raised nor regulated as food animals in the US. They routinely receive medications that are banned from food animals such as Phenybutazone or "bute", the aspirin of the horse world. Addition medications include Clenbuterol, Ivermectin, fluphanazine, fluoxetine, methylprednisone, dipyrone, gentamycin sulfate, ketoprofen, Regumate and Lasix -- all clearly labeled, "Not for use in animals intended for food."


What is the usage of bute in food animals in the US?

* According to the FDA, there is no tolerance for bute in food-producing animals, and they and their by-products are condemned when it is detected. Dairy producers must not use this drug in food-producing cattle and if it is found, those producers will be subject to FDA investigation and possible prosecution. (http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/98fr/03-4741.htm). Since horses are not considered food animals in the US, bute is widely administered to horses by veterinarians and horse owners.

* The Food Animal Residue Avoidance Databank (A National Food Safety Project administered through the U.S. Department of Agriculture) prohibited the extralabel use of bute in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older as of May 29, 2003 because of the likely adverse effect in humans. With this action the use of any phenylbutazone in an adult dairy cow becomes a violation of the Food Drug and Cosmetic Act and one of FDA's highest regulatory priorities. (http://www.farad.org/prohibit.html). Again, this does not apply to horses because the FDA and USDA do not view them as food animals. Therein lies the issue. US horses are not raised nor regulated as food animals, yet 1% of the 9 million American horses ARE being slaughtered for human consumption overseas.

* Veterinarians should be in violation of their own AVMA law by administering bute and almost all of the other medications they give to horses -- "Extralabel drug use is not permitted if it would result in a violative food residue or any residue that may present a risk to public health." (http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/oct00/s100100a.asp)


What are the side-effects of bute?

* Phenylbutazone has been determined to be a carcinogen to humans by the National Toxicology Program (NTP).

* Phenylbutazone is also known for its ulcerogenic, nephrotoxic, and hemotoxic effects in humans. It is known to induce blood dyscrasias, including aplastic anemia, leukopenia, agranulocytosis, thrombocytopenia, and deaths.


Is bute ok for use in food animals in the countries where US horse meat is consumed?

* No. In the European Union, any horse that has EVER received bute in its lifetime is banned from entering the food supply. They have had to implement a costly and complex "passport system" in Great Britain (a country that is also overwhelmingly against horse slaughter) in 2004 to address this very issue for the 8,000-10,000 horses that go to slaughter for human consumption in the EU each year. And in July 2009 all UK and EU horses will need a microchip in addition to their passport because of this same medication issue.


How is the collection of slaughter horses different from cattle?

* US slaughter horses are mainly purchased at auction through independent "killer buyers" contracted by the three foreign-owned horse slaughter houses in the US. The horses are bought from many owners across the country. There are NO medical records to go with these horses. In contrast, farm veterinarians are required to hold each cattle herd's medical records for 2 years for trace back requirements of drug records, illness records, etc.


Aren't there inspections on horse meat at slaughterhouses?

* Yes, there are random inspections of horse meat, but horses are not purchased from one owner in one herd like cattle are. They are bought from many owners at many locations and with no medical records. The horse slaughter houses would need to test EVERY horse to make sure they are free of toxic and carcinogenic drugs. This is NOT BEING DONE. At present, there can be NO ASSURANCE that US horse meat is safe for human consumption. According to our own laws, it is clearly illegal.

Troy Hadrick said...

Everyone needs to relax a little here. I don't sit at my computer 24/7, so if i don't post your comment right away just try to have a little patience. And insulting me and my blog will not speed up the process.

By the way, since those that started this conversation didn't have the courage to put their name on their beliefs, I had to take them down. I gave them a chance, that's all i can do.

My policy on here has always been that i won't post a comment that is nothing but a link, sorry airspace.

Troy Hadrick said...

Lori, so your only problem is with drug residues? As I am sure you know, Much of this meat is going into the EU which has very strict regulations on this type of thing. So you are suggesting that they look the other way for horse meat but not other types of meat. And your article was wrong on a couple of things that I will mention here.

First, I know of no vets that keep two years worth of records on the medical history of a herd. We rarely even use a vet because our herd health program is so strong. And if people have used these banned medications on their horses that were going to eaten, then they were breaking the law. No one is going to force anyone to eat this meat, but you can't deny there is a market for it.

Another things is that you claim cattle come from single herds, not like horses coming from all over. You need to research this quite a bit more. Cattle get mixed from here, there and everywhere throughout their lives. So you are actually quite wrong on that. You should come out and visit cattle country sometime. I would personally show you around during the fall run if you would like.

So Lori, maybe we should work toegther to make sure that all regulations are being followed and then we could re-open a facility.

By the way, thanks Lori for discussing this with me instead of feeling the need to threaten and insult me and my work. Your allies that do that really detract from your efforts.

And for airspace, I don't support any certain company. I support the idea that we can use animals as a food source. And a bit of advice. I can tell you are probably a smart guy that is passionate about this subject, but you lose your credibility when you have to spend half the time insulting me.

Airspace1 said...

Troy I did send you some facts about Leroy Baker you know the auctioneer that was fined. for allowing his treatment to horses.

I also sent you the FOIA from the USDA Report.

Also I sunt you a article on how criminals discard there horses in ditches..

whos to blame now. The few horses they call unwanted or the criminal that did it..

The slaughter must stop and criminals and irresponsible people should be fined for there crimes

I have looked at both ends and this is my finall conclusion we should not reward these people to make a profit..

Airspace1 said...

Hey welcome to the real world insults are every where in every form. Havent you thought you have insulted us responsible people saying lets slaughter horses. Dont you even think that it also promotes theft. Or that if I should ever want to sell a horse at an auction we have to worry about killers being there. You should not cry on a mere wording compared to your future profits. I know you dont care about others opinons only your owns. You have prove that by taking your voices on the road for HIRE... Why dont you do it for free to help your farmer comrades kinda like I do. I travel the whole US to help rescues and to spread the word about irresponsible people creating problems and who we can fix it.. You on the other hand show no remorse or care to responsible people seems you should sing a new tone. Responsiblity or unless you are wanting to become a killer buyer too. Your a on the road speaker for hire and now wanting a new market supporting foreigners and killing an American Icon.. you surely make the old farmers look bad..

Airspace1 said...

Are you going to address the situation on the articles I sunt you or are you going to hide behind fact.. You asked and I provided the least you could now do is be honest.. I have taken the time for years to look on both sides of the story on horse slaughter. It must stop''

Troy Hadrick said...

I completely agree with you airspace. If people are breaking the laws then they should be punished. I have never advocated for animal abuse. As a persone that has been around livestock all my life, I try very hard to make sure that they are happy and healthy everyday while they are in my care. But I do believe that harvesting these animals for food is a humane and responsible choice. Closing these plants took away an option, because transportation costs to Canada and Mexico makes it cost prohibitive and their chain space is full.

Troy Hadrick said...

In order to deter theft, we brand our horses. That easily takes care of that problem. Second, if you don't want your horses being bought by the wrong person, sell them private treaty or put a reserve price on them that will deter that person.

If i didn't care about others opinions, i wouldn't have spent as much time with you as i have. And yes we are asked to share our story with groups and we are compensated for that time away from our operation and family. Have you heard us speak? Do you know if we even talk about this issue? Do you know what other topics we talk about?

All I did yesterday was post a news article and becasue of that i support foreign owned companies and advocate the destruction of the american icon? Again, i support harvesting horses as an option for people. Nobody has to use the option, nobody has to eat the meat. The problem is this whole situation doesn't affect you, it affects people in the livestock industry like me. You can have your opinion, but so can I. I too have looked at all the facts and this is the conclusion i came to.

John said...

Not being a horse owner I admit I am not up to speed on all the pharmaceuticals or treatments listed by Lisa potentially used on horses. I don't have a clue what most of the ones she listed are. No one I know medicates their horses with anything except a wormer and basic vaccinations.

I am familiar with ivermectin and treat my cattle with it for both internal and external parasite control. Ivermectin is safe, effective, and reasonably priced,especially since it is now availabel as a generic. IMO, ivermectin is a big improvement over products like Warbex.

I see no reason why ivermectin would be approved for cattle but not for horses used as food animals.

It should go without saying that ivermectin or any other parasite treatment or pharmaceutical usage should be in conjuction with observing proper dosages and withdrawl periods.

Airspace1 said...

Please give me a break the most common story is the market has drop and its hard to sell horses. Even when the horse plants were open and I visited the auctions in Texas many years before I knew of slaughter there was no way to identify a killer. There in the crowd or near the fence biding to make a profit. You might as well market drugs in columbia because there is a market. you might as well legalize growing the Coca plants or even growing weed. There is a market In thoses countrys that consume horse meat there are also others trying to stop it. You will never profit from it and how is it hurting you. If you can afford the PC your on I dont think you are starving so you can afford to euthanize your horse. Theroy is if you can afford a corvette you MUST have Insurance its your responsiblity If you have a horse you MUST be able to provide for it.. All you are doing is promoting and rewarding irresponsible breeding. Why are there no Ags organizations or AQHA or any other overbreeder associations setting funds for so called old horses or even donating to horse rescues. Why because there tight wads that care only about there selfs. They dont care about horse rescues they dont care about responsiblity and you are there circus clown running around saying the sky is falling the sky is falling Peta is going to kill us all.. why not unite to fix the problem.. AQHA reminds me of hitler save the surpreme race and slaughter the rest. What fees do you charge to have your meetings I know when I do mind I dont charge no one. I make no money on saving horses. Unlike the others that dont donate to rescues or educate people on responsible breeding etc.

Airspace1 said...

Steriods where used in the Race horse industry for years and even show horses. Do a search on race horse slaughter you will find the most common drugs used in horses. All the drugs that were used from brute ,wormers,etc. can be found. They clearly state not to use in animals intented for consumption. USDA has again ignored this by slaughtering everything that walk thru there doors blind, cripple you name it. Im not out to get Ag its the horses I have a problem with..but if Ag wants a fight I will fight.. Remember when the beef industry tried to sue Oprah on her free speach to not eat beef again.. Guess what she Won.. The cattle boys left with there tails behind there fat a...s and I happen to be there when it happen..Oprah stayed in Texas for 3 months defending her rights... Shame on these greedy people.. dont be there circus clown.

Airspace1 said...

You know one thing Troy you do live in a beautiful state. I had always told my wife I would love to live near the MT&Canada border. But then I found out about shelby MT. The feedlot own by the Canadain slaughter house. and then I also read about the violations of over hundreds of horses they had packed and collecting them for slaughter on a few acres of land and learning of Senator Conraid Burns allowing the wild mustangs to go to slaughter with the movement of his pen on one page ignoring a 1971 law to protect them. We all know the BLM has ties to the cattle industry for profits and how the cattlemen paid $1.00 per head grazing on our wild lands.. If the cattlemen really cared about the horse then they wouldnt care paying $10.00 per cow grazing our lands.

Lori Hackman said...

Hi Troy,
Thank you for posting my comments. I appreciate your feedback about how cattle are gathered. I do not have a lot of experience in the cattle field, so I appreciate knowing more about it.

As I said, I am highly opposed to horse slaughter for *many reasons*. The *main* reason though, is that according to our own food laws, it is illegal.

Some of my “many reasons” include the two babies being born on the slaughterhouse floor of Cavel and the thought of those poor mares having no choice but to give birth then and there. It’s against the law to ship mares so heavily pregnant, but they do it time and time again. Just like they ship the babies (under 6 mo old) and blind horses and horses not sound on all four legs and not separating the stallions –– all illegal. The horses, mixed together in the double-decker that’s not tall enough for them; and then the denial of food and water usually starting at the auction and never given throughout the trip even though that might be over the legal limit of 28 hours. I cannot stand all of these lies about which horses go to slaughter. It’s a meat business, not a charity. The foreign-owned horse slaughterhouses don’t want the skinny ones, the sick ones, the ill-tempered ones that will injure others along the way. The killer buyers will buy any horse that has meat on its bones that’s cheap enough to make them money. Most of all I’m horrified to see the recent Freedom of Information Act photos that were obtained from the USDA (http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/). Do they really need to gouge horse’s eyes out? And bottoms of legs totally gone, other horses totally crippled … the abuse is more than I will ever be able to get out of my head.
Additionally, it’s the whole mentality of the people who over breed and aren’t responsible owners and don’t train and don’t care for and don’t plan … and all of this behavior is rewarded because they get paid by the killer buyer. It is very different from the mentality of the people who raise “food” animals –- at least I hope to hell it is.

So back to the main reason I’m against horse slaughter for human consumption –- according to our own food laws, it is illegal. Yes, I absolutely think that the USDA looked the other way because the horse meat was not being consumed by Americans.

When horses were being slaughtered in the US, the USDA gave their stamp of approval to thousands of horses destined for the EU, knowing full well the regulations that Europe has for its food products, and totally ignoring own food laws (illegal to have known carcinogens in food animals). Why do they not care? Is it because horse meat is not being eaten by US citizens? No wonder why we also have such a lack of trust and rejection of our US beef in the world market.

Are the illegal substances found in US slaughter horses?
* Absolutely. According to the USDA’s Red Book, of the 66,183 horses slaughtered in 2004, 6.6% (4,268.08) horses were in violation for “bute” and 13.3% (8,802.34) were in violation of Penicillin. Of the 94,037 horses slaughtered in 2005, 11.1% (10,344.07) horses were in violation for “bute” and 25% (23,509.25) were in violation of Penicillin. Only small samples of 15 horses and 8 horses, respectively, were even tested. You can bet the other horses that were not tested got the USDA stamp of approval and were sent overseas, even though it is clearly illegal according to our own food laws and the laws of the European Union. This does not account for the vast majority of drugs that horses receive, as they are not required to test for those medications. The Red Book does not reflect any residue data for slaughter horses in 2006, which is the year that the horse slaughter industry paid the USDA inspectors themselves … Hmmmm.

Troy, if this is of interest to you, please read more about what the UK and the EU has had to do in regards to the very same medication issue: http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/id-move/horses/horses_qa.htm, http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?id=12049

For me, I have saved for years and years to be able to afford my own horse. I would welcome a similar “passport” system in the US. In fact, NH was just investigating a horse license program, similar to dog licenses. If the US wants to make horses food animals, they need to have the same regulations in place – that includes all the medications that they currently don’t test for (because they were never intended to be ingested by humans).

Which leads me to ask, if not all cattle come from the same place, how do they find and enforce drug regulations? Is it true that farmers can be fined if they find illegal residue in their food animals' systems?

Thank you,
-Lori

John said...

Ladies, I apologize. My comments were directed toward the post made by Lori, not Lisa. Sorry for any confusion.

vicki said...

Hi, Troy (and John!). Regarding Lori’s post on horses coming from many locations vs. cattle – the difference is, you could take every cow and be able to determine the owner. Don’t you remember the joke going around that they could find the owner of one cow out of millions but they can’t find Bin Laden? Horses do not follow livestock regulations. There is a big difference besides the drug issue. Once a horse enters the slaughter process, other than lip tattoos or microchips, you don’t have a clue where the horse came from. Even with lip tattoos, you can only find the original owner if the horses was sold several times over and not reregisterd – no chain of ownership. The SW Texas cattle assoc was being paid $3 (or $4) per head to check for stolen horses. With all the reports of owners trying to get back their horses once they found out they were bought by a kill buyer, don’t you find it odd that they never reported one stolen horse? You would think to keep up appearances they would report one every now and then. At the plants, the microchips were never read, just removed so as not to taint the meat. Velda and Chevideco have really done a number on the US horse industry and we have nobody to blame but ourselves for allowing it to continue.

On a different note, assuming these proposed plants are US owned, how do you think Velda and Chevideco are going to take to you cutting into their business? I can see it now. The propaganda they are spewing through the pro slaughter supporters to keep the horses coming will suddenly shift to foreign propaganda on how unsafe US horsemeat is for human consumption. Won’t that be special!

Do you support “harvesting” all domestic animals or just horses?

www.vickitobin.com

Troy Hadrick said...

Short on time today, but I will share my ideas soon.

John said...

Vicki, as I communicated in our previous discussion and will reinterate here. If theft of horses is a major problem in your state, then efforts by the citizens of IL would be well served to enact laws and enforce them to solve the problem.

In SD both cattle and horse ownership can be traced and accounted for through brands and diligent enforcement of our brand laws. Our brand inspection system in SD has effectively worked for decades to minimize thefts of both cattle and horses.

Airspace1 said...

I wont share ideas but I will share my day with you Troy.. This morning my wife and I attend an Illinois horse auction. Sales were normal, horses were reasonable despite the lost jobs and hard times. Nothing different except one thing NO KILLERS were there. For some reason things went great I saw more people smiling and shaking hands with us and others. Just a wonderful day for us at the auction. Then on the way home and after one hour on the road as my wife was driving she notice two dark bays along the road. The first thing I thought because I have debated so many uninformed people about lose horses that this is the first thought of Credit I gave the pro slaughter people. As we pulled over and having new tack etc. I ran to the horses to tack them due to no halters on them. They were a little skitish and kept on walking after about 1/4 mile on the side of the road I managed to halter them. During that time my wife and I were trying to direct traffic. As I walked with the horses side by side and my heart pumping like crazy I notice the local sheriff and a few driver pulled over to help my wife. The situation ended up the Neigbor was in charge of the horses while the owner was in chicago 6 hours away. The Neighbor fed in the morning and then forgot about a second gate he left open. He had been looking for the horses on the 20 acres with a small light to feed a second time, but we found them near the road he soon notice the pileup of lights and came running to the horses. To close on a good note all was ok they were not loose horses or abanned horses just curious horses grazing other grasses.. This must be the kinds of stories the pro slaughter people are crying about.. If you like more proof you can call white county sherif as I had told my wife to call 911. Ask Paul Harveys says... Good Day.

D. Masters said...

Mr. T. Hadrick:

Where in the hell did the term "horse harvesting" come from???? Farm Bureau, AQHA, NCBA, Better Homes & Gardens? In my entire life I have never heard the term "harvesting" used with respect to a mammal product. Shellfish, yes. Corn, wheat and tomatoes, yes. But animals? Holy God, with all do respect to our Almighty Creator. Now, I've heard of relocation camps and breeding for the proper color and race, but that was associated with WW2. Seriously, what in the Hades are you talking about?

It is a FACT, horses entering the human consumption slaughter market ARE NOT produced as food animals with the regulations necessary for safety and enforcement for same AND NO FREAKIN' PRODUCTION RECORDS.

Also, horses go to slaughter every week of the month in the US. But you know that right? Doesn't sound like it. Check out the NRA and see the numbers of US renderers that deal in horse hides, by-products, etc. But you don't get a refund on those slaughters because people can't eat 'em. Now, just exactly why is this little niche human consumption horsemeat market so important to you?

And it is OK with you that these equids are shipped in cattle/swine DDs? None of my ag professors/instructors talked about processing horses for human consumption. They talked about production, death and disposal and nutrition and taxes, BUT THEY NEVER INSTRUCTED ME OR ANY OF MY FELLOW STUDENTS ON DISPOSING EQUIDS FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.

I would think your time would be better spent promoting US Beef, Pork, Poultry and Sheep/Lamb products for the international and US demand with a ton of cleaning up the sloppy transporters, slaughterhouses and purveyors of same.

You have a great day and glad you haven't found the time to reply because you are just so busy in the animal ag world. Have you ever heard of a laptop and wi-fi? You seem to be the keeper of the flame here and we hang on your every word.

D. Masters

Crystal said...

I have read what the anti slaughter people are saying.
One thing that has not been brought up is the horses that are DANGEROUS!
Yes I have owned 3 of these type of horses. One was a bucker that almost broke mt husbands back. Second one was a run away hard mouthed that would try to put both front hooves on your head when you tried to give her an oral dewormer.
Third one would chase the trainer around the corral and would charge anyone who walked into a pen with her.
So what are your suggestions? Any of you willing to take them?
Never mind they have already been sent off to slaught because I could not in good faith sell or give these horses to anyone and later find out that these horses hurt someone else.
I did the right thing for these dangerous horses.
Now the one remarking that they are supporting a horse rescue, where were you when those horses were abandoned in the desert and starved to death? How about the ones being abused because they are not fed? Left tied to fences and posts by roads for someone to take?
You stated that ranchers should pay $10.00 aum for the land they lease. Here's a thought for you, why don't you pay for the weed control, fence repair, and water development.

Airspace1 said...

First I guess you are talking to me crystal since you cant say who you are talking to. Now about horses being release in the Desert what did you do?? Now releasing horses is nothing new you forget the spanish were the every first to free or let loose the horses they brought to this country. Then there were horses lost in battle thru the years. You dont mention that do you.. Maybe you dont know your history of America. Now why must I pay for anyones fence besides my own. I am only responsible for my horse and if they own horses they are obligated to there own fences etc. You dont seem to have your path right. Now the crazy wild horses Crystal I have worked and train many horses including the wild mustangs I love challenges these horses may first have been abused or trained by an idiot. Then once they failed they pass the horse to you.. Then you couldnt train so the horses won because you lack the knowledge to train that horse. Being the horse was brought to slaughter by you shows your lack of responsiblity Im sure you got paid too for your lack of training ablity so you may think you won but you failed the horse and to every you mention this too. To me you had some very smart horses that knew how to ignore ignorance. You forget a horse is a flight or fight animal and because you didnt know how to train the horse and was even scared of the horse he or she knew you were weak and you push fear to everyone who tried to work with that horse. In the long run you lost a great horse a very smart horse. Why becaue you choice the easy out and wanted to get paid for it. I am positively sure that the majority of horses wild and crazy were actually not at all. If I put you in a pen with a bunch of people and you knew I was about to bash your head and slice your throat you would be either scared or fighting to get out..

Troy Hadrick said...

Airspace,

your comments are interesting because you said in an earlier post that there is NO way to tell if there are killer buyers in the crowd at an auction. Yet this weekend you knew there wasn't. Typical. Not sure of the point of the rest of your story. Nobody has ever talked about lost animals here, just the abandoned ones. Just like this sory out of Utah talks about from last week. http://www.abc4.com/content/news/slc/story/Utah-horses-being-abandoned-more-often-slow/HhLt8RzE5UCeVDiaFH6G4Q.cspx

Masters, if you consult the dictionary, you will see that harvesting is the proper term to use. And it's too bad your horse production classes were lacking in their content. We actually ate some horse meat in our production classes just because it is an important part of the industry. By the way, I apologize for keeping you waiting on the post, but if this forum doesn't suit your needs, you are free to go. It is my blog and I will operate it the best I can. I don't live in the 8-5 Mon - Fri world with a starbucks on every corner. And thankfully so.

Crystal, you are dead on with your statements. If the option of harvesting them for human consumption is lost, you would be forced to either kill them yourself or turn them loose to die. Horse rescue isn't always an option if you don't live in urban states. I am sure that some of the people on here will try to belittle your training skills, but not every horse is suitable to ride. Period. And if they can't earn their keep, they have to go. The main point Crystal made that I agree with is that humans should rank higher than horses. Just as I wouldn't sell a cow or bull for breeding if i knew it would try to eat kill someone, you shouldn't do that with horses either.

Again, those of you that think insulting me helps make your point go over better are giving me a great chuckle. I guess if you can't make a good point, go after the blog writer. Keep them coming.

Airspace1 said...

Poor Troy he will defend anyone that supports slaughter.. Period. And as I said before most people dont know there are killers As I do attend many auctions I have now gotten to know what to look for.. If you didnt understand or took it wrong then maybe its the cowboy in you that isnt up to speed. Most people do not know killers or that they attend them. When I first visit the auction I was at saturday I didnt know they exist there too. Let me clear that up for you partner.. If I seem on edge to bite its because Ive heard it all from the AG boys that dont give a dam about the majority of people that oppose horse slaughter. There most common word from pro slaughter is we are Peta or we are going to put Ag out of business.. Geez isnt it in other countries back then that Mrs Rice was trying to convince Beef was safe to eat. The president of USDA was having a hard time conviencing them to buy it.They wanted cattle no older than 20 months of age and no bone fragments. Seems the USDA just couldnt get it right. If anything hurts US beef its the beef industry it self..

vicki said...

John, you're playing games. I never said there was a horse theft problem in IL. My point was when horses are stolen and sent to slaughter, there is nothing in place to check ownership or any chance of the owner retrieving his/her horses. There are no production records for horses. Just another difference between horses and livestock. When CA passed the ban on horse slaughter, thefts dropped over 30%. I'm sure you've seen the recent FDA Vet document that considers horses companion animals in the same category as dogs and cats.


Crystal, slaughter is still available. Why aren't those horses going to slaughter? How will slaughter stop that? If a horse can't be trained and is truly dangerous, the horse should be humanely euthanized. You wouldn't want him sold to a new owner with the potential of harming someone, would you? Here's a thought. How about holding the owner accountable for horses they chose to buy or breed? Why do you feel it is anyone's responsibility but the owner? Nobody forced him to own the horse. If they don't want the responsibility of ownership, the fix is easy. Don't own a horse. I find it amazing that the pro folks are so quick to dismiss owner responsibility and blame everyone and everything but themselves. Address the cause and slaughter will be a moot point.

Troy Hadrick said...

Why wouldn't I defend someone whose ideas agree with my own. And since you now CAN tell if a someone is buying horses to process them, we can go back to what I said before. If you don't want your horse to end up there, sell them by private treaty or set a floor price on them at auction that will keep them out of an order buyers hands.

And if the majority of people want this stopped, why are you wasting your time with me? You won't have any problems getting this legislation passed. Quit worrying about it.

I'm not sure what your comment was about concerning the president of the USDA. I'm not aware of that position or who that person is. But yes, the beef industry worked very hard to resume normal trading with Asian countries. The problem was the fact that sound science was thrown out the window by these other countries. Anyhow, at the end of the day things worked out and they are one of our top customers again. It looks like 2009 could see us double our exports to that area over 2008.

Anonymous said...

Vicki, I've addressed this before and you're still not listening.


You said: " My point was when horses are stolen and sent to slaughter, there is nothing in place to check ownership or any chance of the owner retrieving his/her horses."

False. At least in SD and in other states that have brand laws and actively enforce them.

If your statement is indeed true for other jurusdictions, then I would suggest there better darn well be something put in place to check ownership.

Your statement is simply not true in SD. I repeat (for the third time at least) SD does have and enforces ownership laws for both cattle and horses. No one but the lawful owner can be paid for a horse.

In light of that fact, what incentive is there for someone to steal a horse? No one can just go and steal a horse (or a cow for that matter) and expect to sell it because the brand inspector will catch them.

I have been very simple and direct throughout our discussions in a respectful manner. I'd say it's pretty far fetched to imply I have been playing games.


Furthermore, why did your bring the subject of horse stealing up then if you do not see it as a problem? You introduced horse stealing into this discussion, not me.

If IL or any other state for that matter has problems with horse stealing, then I will say yet again that is a problem that can and should be addressed by state laws and enforcement.

Airspace1 said...

I have to say Im clearly convinced its not about the unwanted horses or the pro slaughter even caring for the horses. The AVMA and the AAEP took an Oath in office to protect horses have they done anything to stop the travel of horses to Mexico.. NO did they do anything to ban double deckers until we exposed them NO. Will they continue to allow states to allow them to go to mexico YES.Will the Pro slaughter admit its only about the money NO..Its also ashame and wrong that the pro slaughter fight and cry to our elected officals about this while our economy hurts. When finally Texas plants were exposed they tried to become legal by having Betty Brown known as as Bloody Brown to make them legal. They failed they only knew they could operate illegal and all the paid puppets followed.. I dont expect to changed Troys ways he can remain pro slaughter for all I care. I will never stop fighting for the horses and I dont make a living doing this as the AQHA,APHA,AVMA,AAEP,and the Cattle Association. Many years ago before I knew of horse slaughter I was a strong supporter and big fan of the PBR I bought and worn anything about the professional bull riders association. Being all are just bull headed Im so ashamed of my purchasing of even a mere shirt. NO More support here..

D. Masters said...

Mr. Hadrick:

You selectively ignore or dismiss antislaughter concerns/points, repeatedly in an attempt to protect the current and albeit, limited number of horses going to human consumption horse slaughter.

That you butchered or ate horse doesn't make you an expert on the overall welfare issues of horse slaughter. I would also say that horse slaughter was not the primary emphasis of your AG education. As I said, horses are slaughtered regularly here in the US for nonhuman consumption. Why isn't that good enough for disposal of the US equid? I said because YOU DON"T GET PAID FOR IT. So your quaint euphemism "horse harvesting" is taking place here in the US...just not for the entire payout process/cycle of human consumption horse slaughter.

The concerns of international consumer markets are legitimate and not a function of throwing out sound science. The situation of US Beef is improving, but far from complete particularly when you look at the fact that 30% of US Beef comes from the dairy industry; older animals, different drug/prophylaxis, etc.

And once again, US horsemeat competes against all US pork/beef/sheep exports for the international consumer market. The latter have very good production records....the US HORSES DON"T.

BTW, my education was very complete at my AG University...horse slaughter for human consumption was at the time a dirty little secret in the US and not for the US consumer. Where'd you go to college...Canada? That I would understand. Of course, unless you were a Meat Science minor, with production B.S. whereby, the meat intruction would have handled all meat processing product possibilities...however, horses would not have been a function of instruction for human consumption intended for the eventual US consumer industry.

D. Masters

Crystal said...

airspace I guess I must be more direct since you didn't understand what I was saying. First off I did not leave horses in the desert as you implied. I was just wondering if you had read about in the newspaper as I did.
Your statement showed me that you are not as well informed as you like to pretend.
You think those horses that I spoke about were trainable, well 3 different trainers agreed that they were dangerous and were better off sent to slaughter, so I doubt even your "training" could have changed them.
I have 3 horses in my pasture that I broke and trained myself. Rather funny that you are such an expert and no nothing about myself or my horses.

Slaughter is a way to get rid of dangerous horses like this. If you think that you can do better then prove it.
2 of these horses I trust with my children, 1 does not have the temperment to deal with kids, so they stay away from him.

D. Masters said...

Mr. Hadrick:

I forgot to mention a few other points. Your horse harvesting waste concerns, as I said is taking place in the US...nothing is wasted if the owner/slaughter buyer sells to renderers. It is not happening for human consumption horse slaughter, to a point in the process.

But since you take pride in slaughtering a horse in your education, and ate it (not knowing where this took place), why does the USDA NOT have grading and quality standards for horseflesh? Now I understand they don't have it for other meat sources that are butchered in the US (deer, elk, personal use) but, based on the "processing" numbers available from USDA and AHC, just exactly why would the USDA not have quality and grading standards for equids?

D. Masters

Troy Hadrick said...

Masters,

Why do they need a grading system for horses? They don't for bison either. By the way, they are an American icon too, why aren't you upset with the way they are being handled? And what points have i ignored or dismissed? If i don't agree with them doesn't mean i have ignored them.

I went to an American university and you are right, my degree isn't in horse harvesting, but neither was yours, so I guess we are even there. And when was it a dirty little secret? Who organized the big conspiracy? I never knew it to be a secret. I guess your education wasn't as complete as you thought.

As for the beef coming from dairy cows. That is a big part of the industry. Was that a dirty little secret that too? That no one told you dairy cows were turned into beef? Everyone in the beef industry has to follow the same guidelines for drug use and withdrawl periods. The more you talk the more evident it is that you are removed from the livestock industry. Your 'points' are common knowledge.

If you guys think you are going to change my mind, you are wrong. I worked with livestock my entire life, and I know the circle of life. Something must die so that something else might live. we have to double food production in the world in the next 40 years and yet we continue to restrict our abilities to produce food. Every piece of the pie is going to count, including this issue. So if you don't like this protein source, i would like to hear your suggestions as how to replace this lost resource. Take a stab at that, maybe that will change my mind, you never know. And don't tell me going vegetarian, because that is the biggest flawed theory in the vegan universe.

Airspace1 said...

Troy how is it the bigest flawk. a numberious amounts of veggies are excellent for the system. Greens are good for cleaning out the sysyem. Red meats can stay in the sysyem and build and collect waste.Im not a veggie but sure wish I could change. Im tired of the whole cattle industry trying to change our minds that they are always right. Doesnt the production of cows produce the most emissions far more than cars. FDA has proven fact that to much red meat is bad.You say that the farmer is expected to double there production and is that world growth so to help solve the problem of over world population how can you fix it.. Well you dont slaughter people you dont call Dr. Korvoken you teach people to limit there kid production. Its seems a little hard to tell some people that because then you some one saying we are free to live and produce if we want its our god giving right......Geez people need education to be more responsible to how many kids they have same goes to horses. The one crying are the ones that have to many horses or that sells and buys horses for a living and dont have the education to do nothing else but cause problems in the world. Auctioneers cant sell to killers. Killers cant afford or want to travel so far and breeders have less places to sell to slaughter because of a gaurantted sale being gone Then the American Quarter horse and other associations cant produce papers for profits because births are down. So now you have the problems of waning horse slaughter. To many people making money breeding and discarding.. Then there are the few who dont know how to train horses and saying these are wild crazy mean horses Boo Hoo'' Im sure these kinds of people might even beat there kids black and blue too.

Airspace1 said...

Here is the proof from the AVMA and the AAEP. They know the drugs brute,steriods and other drugs are being used. Yet they still do nothing to hault the slaughter of horses going to slaughter. http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=13614 if that link doesnt work send me you mailing address to phazzII@yahoo.com I will send you any link of proof. They have taken an Oath to protect the horses and have failed. they support profits over human health. You cant even trust the USDA because they know this too. besides I have a cousin that works for USDA and some of the things I told him he didnt know and once I told him the facts he just didnt know what to say. All he ever tells me is that last year he made over 100,000 and the next year he may make even more than that. I called him a sellout lying and holding the truth. He knows it his family is upset with him too.. We grew up together but I cant be around him when I know he sellouts to this kind of stuff.

D. Masters said...

You know what Mr. Hadrick...you are dead in the thought water as far as I am concerned.

You answer NOTHING... absolutely nothing, clinging to this at all cost HCHS debate. You don't care about cattle, pork, sheep or the welfare of horses. You don't answer questions by saying YOU have answered questions. Here is another tip, international markets are SLOWLY opening up to US meats, of which (you meat hero) horsemeat is not on the export radar screen with allot of "I don't believe what the producers and USDA say".

And you know what, I eat beef, pork and poultry...live here and I DON'T BELIEVE THE USDA EITHER.

You, young turk, have an image problem. I suggest you retract the spurs and push the best meat in the world...US beef, pork, poultry and clean up the industry. Euthanize horses humanely, because if you don't the truth about COOL and testing will kill the entire US meat market..shill that you are for the foreign horsemeat market. Here's another question for you that you will ignore...where's your dog in this fight? You raise traditional livestock or dump horses at 10 yo? Actually, it doesn't matter. I have read your answers. They are more than incomplete, less than comprehensive. Something to the effect that you seem to have some type of agenda. Dismiss me all you want. I have studied agriculture with a pre-vet/animal production emphasis and never met anyone like you. I will not reply any longer and the reason why is..."you don't know this, dismiss that, are insulted by this and generally have no facts to support your horse slaughter position". I told you...horses are slaughtered all the time in the US, transport is inhumane, and horse slaughter in the US for human consumption still exists...now, only they ALL go over the borders...why do we have abandoned horses...starving horses???

Because you are a Farm Bureau "contributor" and the Farm Bureau probably has contacts with the foreign horsemeat purveyors, why do you care about horsemeat? Adulterated, putrified...non tested US Horsemeat??? Good gravey..the cattle and swine/poultry guys work their butts off to check the blocks and meet USDA requirements...and you want to talk about bison. Hey, Troy...they ain't slaughtered or shipped in the numbers for human consumption that US Equids are. You know what...you are semantics cheat. Please let me know the name of your farm so I never buy beef products from your farm or IVP/IVB...yahdahyadah.

Like I said, too bad you don't spend more time on cleaning up the image of US Beef.

BTW 2d time...my name is D. Masters. My parents always told me to address anyone I didn't know full name or Ms/Mr. Try that out next time you try to dismiss me.

D. Masters

Troy Hadrick said...

Well Masters, I'm sorry to see you go, but remember, i didn't force you to come here in the first place and if you thought you were going to change my mind, you were sadly mistaken. Yes, I am a Farm Bureau member. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, i am a member of several other ag organizations as well. None that have any contacts with the foreign horse meat market though.

Congratualtions for taking pre-vet classes. You must not have gone to school in a very ag oriented part of the country.

The reason you don't think my answers are any good is because you don't agree with them. It's probably a good thing you aren't responding anymore cuz your blood pressure has to be throught the roof. You need to remember what is really important in life and calm down a bit.

And I do promote beef wherever I go. That is my business. I think that banning horse processing is the first step to eliminating animal agriculture. HSUS has admitted it, why can't anyone else.

I'm sure this won't be the last time I hear from you.

Troy Hadrick said...

Airspace, you didn't read what I wrote. I asked how are we going to feed the world? I said the theory that we could all switch to vegetarians and that would give us enough food is the biggest 'flawk'. But since you mentioned it, livestock emissions aren't worse than cars. The UN Report which you were referring to said that, but it has been proven untrue. And the easiest way to prove that to you, is they claim that we have been cutting down rain forests to run livestock. How many rain forests do you know of in the US that have been cut down for livestock grazing? I would have thought you would have picked up on that when you read the report. And no, meat does not sit in your system and collect waste, and no FDA doesn't have proof that red meat is bad for you. A healthy diet consists of everything in moderation, which includes meat and dairy products. I'm sorry you don't like us promoting our product.

And give me a break about your cousin. I have to call BS on that one.

If the vets are breaking the law, turn them in. That solves that issue.

Troy Hadrick said...

Oh, Masters, I almost forgot. You asked who's my dog in the fight. I raise cattle. And never have shipped a horse or sold one to somebody where it ended up being processed.

John said...

Troy, I see horse slaughter as a basic private property issue. If you are anti-slaughter, then by all means do not sell your horse for slaughter. Simple as that. If you see slaughter as a viable option, then that is your right.

No one is being forced to send their horse to slaughter as the anti-slaughter folks seem to imply. They are playing games by going off topic on tangents about alleged theft and pharmaceutical abuse issues. Those are seperate issues that can and should be dealt with if they are a problem.

Of course, by design this detracts from the main issue at hand. Which is the horse owner has the right and duty to choose what is best option for them when a decision must be made regarding a horse entrusted to their care.

If you're going to keep a horse until it becomes old and infirm, be prepared to care for it properly physically and financially. Also be prepared to properly euthanize the horse if that becomes necessary, and then properly dispose of the carcass.

This coming from a rancher who hasn't owned a horse for 30 years. The last horse on this place was my grandmother's old mare. I euthanized her myself when at age 28 or so she got down and couldn't get up on her own. Real horse owners do what must be done at the appropriate time, whether that choice is slaughter or euthanasia.

BTW, my last post addressed to Vicki showed up as anonymous. Evidently I still haven't quite figured this board out!

John

vicki said...

Troy, au contraire, HSUS went on the record Feb 4 stating they are not trying to eliminate animal agriculture. Horses are not part of our food chain. We eat beef, pork and lamb. We do not eat horse meat. Ending horses slaughter has nothing to do with livestock slaughter. We say horses are work, service, therapy, sport and companion animals. We say it over and over again. It is the cattle and Ag industries that keep calling them livestock. You guys keep throwing livestock into the mix, not us.

You still haven't addressed the "production record issue". You ignore that and bring up bison. Bison and US horsemeat are considered meat and categorized under the "beef variety" culmination stats. In other words, they are a subcategory and not subject to the same withdrawal periods of cattle or hogs. Animals recognized as beef varieties may or may not be subject to the same medication protocols/withdrawal periods since they are not subject to the same regulatory guidelines.

You continue to say that horses going to human consumption slaughter markets are important because we don't want starving, neglected horses. But we still have those Troy, and horse slaughter is still available. D. Masters said that horses are destroyed all the time in the US-about 800,000 per year (by barbiturate overdose/CBG/gunshot ). Many are rendered and contrary to rumor, horses destroyed by barbiturate overdose are completely acceptable for rendering. The difference is the owners have to pay rather than getting paid. Rendering provides byproducts and obviates potential soil contamination. You ignore those points, too. You also try to discredit D. Masters by saying that he/she must have gone to an agricultural school that doesn't have much agriculture. Unless you know where D. Masters studied agriculture, isn't that more of an insult than a point?

Troy Hadrick said...

Do you honestly believe that since HSUS finally said something that it's true? Come on Vicki. I know you are smarter than that. Years ago, their own people, namely JP Goodwin was quoted as saying he wanted to abolish animal ag. Do you really think he has changed his mind? Go back and look at the things Pacelle was saying before he became CEO. He hasn't had any changes of heart either.

If they spent as much helping dog and cat shelters as they do attacking agriculture, every dog and cat in the country would be taken care of.

And why do you get to define what horses are? Ag defines them different because we are still using horses the way they have been used for centuries. You are using them for a different purpose, pleasure. Your livelihood doesn't depend on them, they are a hobby and you want everyone to look at them as you do, a pet.

If your job required you to use a horse, I can assure you your outlook would probably be different.

I said that we should have processing available as an outlet and to give meaning to their death, which is to sustain life for a human being. Rather than feed the worms in the ground. I have said that we should not waste a resource.

The "production record issue". Is that where you say nobody knows their history? Just do like the other livestock industries, make owners sign an affadavit that says all rules and withdrawl periods have been followed.

And if you think rendering is available everywhere, you are sadly mistaken. Out here, they become coyote or mountain lion food unless you can find a backhoe to dig a hole and bury it. And that's not easy to get on immediate notice. The whole country isn't like suburban Illinois.

And don't feel bad for Masters. In case you weren't reading his comments, he fired off way more cheap shots than I ever did. He started the whole thing off about his education being better than mine. Your buddy airspace said insults are a way of life.

Airspace1 said...

FYI Troy I dont know anyone of the people you are talking too. So once again you are wrong on what you think you know.. Get your facts right. As far as Illinois folks seems the ones that are not pro slaughter are more Intelligent to know the difference between responsiblity and Greed. Like I said before if anything that hurts the beef industry it is people like you. and if you think that is an insult then keep it... Thats all the credit you get from here. The more you rant the more I want to help Peta since thats the number one word you sellouts like to use..

vicki said...

Troy, I cannot speak for HSUS. All I said was that they recently went on record with the statement. People do change and I cannot confirm or deny what you have stated. All I’m saying is that with the thousands of folks I work with, most are meat eaters. Not one person has ever said anything regarding livestock slaughter. The efforts are strictly to ban horse slaughter. I never said rendering was available in all areas. Many states have vet colleges and local departments of ag that provide low cost euthanasia and disposal. There are also rescues that have started functioning more like humane animal shelters. One only needs to look beyond slaughter for the alternatives that are available. Isn’t that something an owner should consider before taking ownership of a horse?

I am not redefining horses. I have family in southern Illinois that are lifelong ranchers/farmers. They raise livestock and some crops. They use horses for their livelihood and in fact, they got me started on the horse slaughter issue. None of their horses have gone to slaughter and never will. They feel the horses helped them earn a living and they will care for them whether they are working or not. They don’t look at them as pets but as work animals. Many states view horses as work animals and not livestock. It doesn’t matter what you call them, they are not viewed as livestock, i.e. food animals. Surely you don’t think the owner of a derby winner considers his horse livestock. I’m sure if you ask therapy horse owners or mounted police, they wouldn’t consider their horses livestock. It’s not what you call them but what functions they serve in society. They serve the same purposes as dogs. Do you consider dogs livestock?

Again, why do you feel on horses should be given purpose in death and not dogs? Both are work, sport, therapy, service and companion animals. Same functions and neither are food animals in our country. They both perform functions livestock do not and cannot perform. You don’t see a cow herding cattle, a mounted policeman riding a cow, a cow in the derby, a cow used for transportation in areas that vehicles cannot reach, hunting with a cow and let’s not forget the riderless cow in presidential and military funerals. The list goes on and on.

BTW-I know D Masters but do not know who airspace is. He/she is not a buddy of mine.

Troy Hadrick said...

Airspace and Vicki, I only meant that you were buddies in ideology. I wasn't professing to know any facts, so calm down AS. Also, AS, to claim that people in Illinois are more intelligent, come on!?!? That's an elementary argument. This has the potential to impact the beef industry, so I will say my opinion. And join PETA if you like, you already support their position.

It's interesting because if you look at my original comments that started this thread, all I did was mention what was happening in the states with no personal opinion. And the anti's felt so threatened that this info was getting out they had to start attacking me.

Vicki, i still don't think you grasp what life is like outside of your neck of the woods. Life is a lot different out here. There isn't a local college, there isn't a rendering facility, there isn't a shelter.

Thinking about what I might have to do with a horse 10-15 years down the road is tough to do. What if it gets hurt along the way and can't be ridden. What if it just can't perform the way I need it to. Etc, etc. Should i put that horse down, even if it's a young horse. Why can't I sell it to get some money back out of the investment?

There are other livestock that can perform the functions of a horse, just not as well. You can train a cow to be ridden, pull a wagon, etc. They just don't do it as well.

It's a little easier to dispose of a dog than a horse, so let's end that ridiculous argument. I couldn't talk about buffalo. But consider this, societies on this continent ate dogs and viewed them as livestock. Just pointing out a fact.

I will continue to view horses as livestock, because they fit the definition of the word. I am not trying to take anyone's rights away from them. That is what you are trying to do. So if your family wants to keep their old horses around, that's fine. I will be the last one to tell them what to do. I just wish the same respect was given to those with a different viewpoint. And like I have said before, I have never sent a horse to be harvested either.

vicki said...

Troy, you are wizard at twisting words. I am not taking away anyone's rights. An owner can sell, donate or keep his/her horse at anytime. They do not have the right to abuse their horse. There are more than enough investigations and FOIAs depicting the abuse and cruelty that is inherent with horse slaughter. Keep in mind, those are only the documented cases. Cavel was expert at skirting laws and regulations. And now, there doing it at Natural Valley. Have you seen the investigations? The pollution is atrocious and may actually be even worse than what they did in Illinois. I have a picture on my site that we took of one of the tanks spewing black foam. It's really a sight to behold and it took years to get them to pay their fines.

Where I live is irrelevant. You don't know if I own horses or where they are stabled. Many people that own horses cannot afford the property needed to keep horses on their property. I would never reveal that information. I know many people in anti slaughter groups that have been threatened and we are not going to put the horses in harms way. What is important is knowledge, not where they live or what they do for a living.

Sell your horse. If you think a few hundred dollars is a return on your investment, I'm guess that horse didn't receive much care. If the horse was used for a business, don't you think you could take $300 of the money the horse helped earn to provide a humane death? I'd rather see a young horse euthanized that putting him through the horrors of slaughter process.

I hear there are cattle ranches starting to go under. Let's pass HR 503 and start promoting US beef. Just think of the boost to the beef industry if you could get France and Belgium to start selling our beef to foreign markets. You could start a campaign letting them know how tainted the horse meat is that they're eating. You help us end slaughter and we'll help you promote the beef industry. We already have the network in place. Deal?

Pass HR 503 and save the beef industry. I like the sound of it!

Troy Hadrick said...

No you are taking away an option, why can't you admit that. If you get your way, I can't sell a horse for human consumption. That is taking away something from me, a possible income source. And I don't want horses abused either. The Alberta Horse Report has some great information from Temple Grandin and others about this process and I believe that it can be done correctly.

If you think passing 503 will help the beef industry, you obviously don't have a lot of knowledge about it. The groups that are trying to pass this bill are also trying to put the beef, pork and poultry producers out of busines as well.

vicki said...

No, Troy, we are not taking away an option. Horses are not raised for slaughter as are livestock. Slaughter is a dumping ground for the irresponsible and over breeders.

Yes, Grandin had a plan. And the greedy kill house owners and those that support slaughter ignored it. They ignored it because it will eat into their profits. While the sell-outs are sending their horses off to the most horrific process imaginable for $300, Velda and Chevideco are making millions. The supporters of slaughter allowed and continue to allow them to brutalize our horses. They are not going to take the time to restrain a horse's head, they are going to continue to hire illegals instead of skilled professionals, they will continue to violate transport laws, they will continue to ignore the meager regulations and continue to feed Europeans contaminated meat. The over breeders will continue to over breed and dump what they don't want or cannot sell. Nothing will change until it ends.

Sorry, but you are dead wrong on the beef industry. The groups I work with rare exception, are meat eaters. You are trying to use the pro slaughter slippery slope rhetoric that was invented by the pro slaughter to scare people into supporting slaughter. There is absolutely no truth to that. We never mentioned livestock. It is the cattle and Ag associations that keep throwing it on our face. You keep bringing it up, not us. If we thought it would make a dent in your profits and get you to back off, we would boycott beef in a heartbeat. Is that what we need to do? If you start losing profits on beef, would you back off the horses?

Why wouldn't you want to promote beef overseas? They stopped eating it because of mad cow, just wait until they discover what they've been ingesting with horse meat. Won't that be special?